Talk:Welcome
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[edit] Well now!
I Have to say, I'm LOVING how the novel looks and reads now It's been almost 2 weeks since i last dropped by, and was expecting more wacky plots twists than a 70's stoner movie, but WOW! What a great read! I felt rather off-put in the early stages of this novel, i couldn't keep track, my contributions came and went, came back again, pah! Sometimes I hadn't even the patience to read the whole thing, but now? Well, WOW! I think that coming from an objective p.o.v , having not really contributed anything lately, I read tonight as a reader, my favourite pastime, not a writer/editor/critic, and I really enjoyed it. So many themes in common, so many diferent ideas merging, each section influencing and evolved into coherency. What a sucess. I look forward to the final draft. nice work.--Beldarin 17:35, 2 March 2007 (EST)
[edit] Does Anyone Care Anymore
not me... if i could be bothered i would go through and remove everything i had written.. but i don't even have the energy for that anymore.. Zzzz...
[edit] About... discussions moved to separate pages
Bananas: I'm not sure if there are enough banana references in the novel. Anyone out there happy to help add some additional banana references? Thanks guys!
--YellowBanana 23:21, 18 February 2007 (EST)
Partner sought: is there anyone out there who wants to tag team on the Fantasy section of Write Your Own Adventure. No-one is touching it - and it seems like a quiet place to get some solid writing done. Look forward to replies. (Tim, Australia)
Partner sought: anyone out there wants to tag team on the Historical Section of Choose Your Own Adventure? I have some great ideas but it would be more exciting to write with a partner. Do get in touch! User:Turelie.carpediem
About locking chapters & other editing matters
About discussion page netiquette
About vandals, spammers & fixes
[edit] Another note from Penguin
Please take a look at the blog and let us know what you think of the idea of a 'reading window'. Thanks Penguin Admin
[edit] A note from Penguin
We've just put a post on the blog called Progress Report asking for feedback on the possible introduction of rules for the wikinovel. We've posted it there so discussion can run sequentially to see if we can reach a consensus as to how we develop this project. Please do have a read and add comments on the blog. Thanks all.
Chapter one's the best it's been yet. No doubt it'll have changed beyond recognition by the time I've posted this.
[edit] How many pages
hi everyone. Just wondering how many pages we're shootin for. --Random guy 05:37, 8 February 2007 (EST)
hi Random guy. Pick a number, any number. How long is a piece of string? I don't think it matters, we're going to be limited by time more than anything else. --crissxross 07:06, 8 February 2007 (EST)
527
[edit] Creative Direction
May I simply add that after the apparent orgy in hyperactive vandalism, that we embrace this newfound creativity and cease this futile attempt at creating a controlled, dull, amateur action thriller. The only way you will ever succeed in creating a serious work with structure and continuity is when you impinge so many rules on the creative process that it ultimately stops being a Wiki.--Pippinz 08:17, 6 February 2007 (EST)
The only way to make this a serious and controlled work is to eliminate every author but one. --Thunderfoot 12:32, 6 February 2007 (PST)
- Hello everyone - I think I'm at the stage where I'm ready to give up. I can't see where this is going, if anywhere. There are a multitude of different chapters, none of which tie into other chapters. The idea of locking chapters doesn't seem to have gone anywhere, which seems to be the only way that a logical flow can develop... anbd if I see one more Big Benjy reference.. argh.. so tired... --TheRevisionist 12:32, 6 February 2007 (PST)
- Don't give up Revisionist! Take a walk in the fresh air! Have a cup of coffee! Strength! --Sunlight 08:52, 8 February 2007 (EST)
- Too late for me. I left for a weekend, and *everything* was different when I got back. Really, only the URL and the underlying software was the same. There's really no point to staying involved if this project moves away from cohesion as it progresses...I think this project will end up stabilizing only because most of the people who cared just moved on to more worthwhile projects.--Gamblor856 00:10, 12 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] multiple stories competing for existence
I suggest dividing the story in multiple arcs, wherein the competing stories all function as arcs of a single story, with the connections tying them together to be revealed in the conclusion, or in crossovers between the arcs. --User:Gamblor956:Gamblor956
When in doubt, blame a penguin for the problems in the story and move on...--Penguin952 15:08, 5 February 2007 (EST)
Conclusion #2 has it... in spades.--Djjansen 06:29, 5 February 2007 (EST)
The first chapter is undergoing continual revision. Let's leave it as a 'fake' first chaopter and the real novel can start from chapter 2 onwards... no-one will ever know!!
I notice the story has basically reverted back to what it looked like 10 hours ago. someones got some issues.
Yes, I think we can see this as a result of the experiment. what has occured is that this has coalesced around not a single but multiple competing storylines, with several people being involved in each. one group puts in their story then the other erases their story and puts theirs back. So individual story elements, like genes are changed around within stories, deleted, added, mutated, but on a larger scale these develop around competing lines which can not coexist. We thus see both competition and cooperation like story lines. We see an ecosystem of story ideas developing. It really is quite fascinating. --Alex bunker 06:51, 4 February 2007 (EST)
Ecosystem of story ideas sounds good to me - especially as different story strands can be developed, but the tug of war is less wiki-ish and hard to cope with. A spirit of co-operation is required, but hard to enforce! - CM
I seriously don't mind people add their own wild plots as shard of the story - it to be expected. But altering the core thesis of the story (aka the main characters) appears to be less tolerated. Someone mentioned locking chapter, and I'm all for it.
Plotholes in the past chapters can be fixed with developments in the story (Carlo and Antonio were killed and subsequently revived). Character wipes are harder to do. We have Section 2, still (relatively) canon to the core, and Section 1 which has been massively changed.
Bring back Mr Bell, Anderson and his pregnant wife, the surgeon, Keepsake and Tango. They really added flavour to the story (especially the surgeon).
And I really think after the chapters have been restored to the old plot (refer to Real Novel), they should be lock to prevent other inconsistencies like the massive shift in Carlo's personality.
SpoiltCheese 06:55, 4 February 2007 (EST)
I am sorry but I frankly think you are missing the point of the whole excersise. If you want to bring people back you can, but you can not expect others to follow with your idea of how things should go. The current idea is to have both a "Novel" and "Real Novel" (I think this should be retitles "Open storyline" and "structures storyline" so we do not privilage a certain structure) in Novel anyone and everyone can do whatever they want, in Real Novel it is structured and restricted and ones role is limited to refinement. A further possibility is to have multiple "Novels" and allow them to bud or split limitlessly, thus avoiding the conflict between competing story lines. if story elements can be seen as competing agents in a multi agent system then what I propose is a transformation of the system to an "Eden Model" where there is limitless room for reproduction and growth. --Alex bunker 07:00, 4 February 2007 (EST)
Well, opened and closed systems works for me, would be nice to see how it works out.
SpoiltCheese 07:08, 4 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] This & That (and that & this)
(I notice Alex also suffered deletion) I made a comment regarding the "Alternative Novel 1" we'd been working on yesterday and that I'd moved an earlier edit to one side so that we could, if we saw fit to, keep working on it away from the prying hands and minds of those that would continually undo our work and destroy our words with jokes of flatulance and so on. While, I'm not forcing anyone to go down this "novel burried in the wiki" route; please keep my words here.
The page(s) contain the seven chapters as they were (more or less) when I'd previously worked on them. There are also links to the character bios for all those that are mentioned in the story (although I think Mr. Bell might need a bit of a re-write, and some characters have no history at all)
Each chapter has been moved onto its own page - allowing as others have said, the possible emergence of different stories from the original core; different "alternative" chapters being able to be created and the story leaping off in many different directions.
Whether you use this, or not, I feel it is important to know that it is there. Then again, I would say that. I moved it there and did the work and like everyone would like to be appreciated :-)
Look, it's there; like everything, do with it what you will. Take from it what you will. But let's keep the story moving, let's get some organisation, and let's get this thing into gear and past the first half-dozen chapters that seem in perpetual re-write.
Alternative Novel 1 <-- this should link there. Please don't delete my comments again.
I would like to add that both are equally interesting elements of the experiment, we have a novel developing with an existing core and one without, what happens differently? what self organizing principles do and do not exist? running both in parallel side by side is exactly the best way to go and the result of the experiment will be in comparing what emerges from both in two months so PLEASE everyone respectfully abide by the all the rules in "Real Novel" and NOONE try to play the NAZI with the "novel" The only thing that I am not comfortable with is the terminology. It is a bit presumptive to preference one approach by referring to it as "real", I think we should have a different term for this. --Alex bunker 05:33, 4 February 2007 (EST)
--Mas 05:24, 4 February 2007 (EST)
Hi Mas, pls see my note below - we may be able to move this discussion to the blog. As for asking people not to delete you - I'm afraid that so many people are revising the wiki all the time, some with good intentions, some not, that no one individual has control. It's infuriating, but that's how a wiki works.--Sunlight 05:31, 4 February 2007 (EST)
- Good points both Sunlight and Alex. I think that we can change the name from "Real Novel" to "Other Novel" ; or "Version 1" or whatever people would prefer. Real novel was only chosen as an arbitary name; like all things wiki, ready to change at a moments whim. That and I was annoyed at the abuse on the Novel at the time "no! This is the real novel :-) grrr" - but it is just a name. I have little ego. change, chop, whatever. It's fine. So long as the story moves as the story should move, remaining constant and coherent I'm happy.
- --Mas 05:42, 4 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] Don't give up
THE STORY AS OF THIS MOMENT IS THE STORY - you are permitted to make slight changes in past, but concentrate on where we are now and move forward
No Im sorry, but I have to differ here, the whole point of this excercise is to test whether self organization will occur without a common core. Given a common core the wikipedia has shown that it does, but does this occur without common core? that is what we are here to find out. You should be open to the possibility tham maybe it does, maybe there are self orgnizing pronicples that emerge from the crowd that you are not aware of. Give it time, allow the system to go where it will, maybe it finds an even better direction than what you originally imagined. Also please in future do not erase anyones comments, in this discussion, that is not good nettiquette. Here is what I wrote before, returned:--Alex bunker 05:10, 4 February 2007 (EST)
I think we should not give up on the original story just yet and encourage everyone to continue to take part. This is the experiment, does self organization happen still if the wikitext, is not moored by a pre-existing frame. For the case of wikipedia this exists- the facts. but what if this is not present? does the collective still prune and create a convergent result given enough time? When the Wikipedia first started there was all sorts of nonsense that gradually got pruned. At one point it was thought that the whole project would be destroyed by countless wiki-vandalism, but this did not happen and Wikipedia is converging on becoming more accurate not less. We see evidence in the story of both directions, on one hand characters and storyline are in chaotic flux with little connection between the chapter, but on the other hand the more ludicrous the addition the more quickly it is removed, for example the Sturgeon story that inhabited chapter 6 but now is gone. We will see which way things go, but it is much too early to give up. --Alex bunker 04:27, 4 February 2007 (EST)
Well said above, whoever you are (please click the signature icon at the end of your post)! This is an object lesson in living with Web 2.0. I also venture to suggest that it challenges all our ideas about how fiction is made. This is a long way from the lone genius in the attic. It's a new model, a different model, and decisions about whether or not it is working have to be reached by new rules and definitions. Having said that, I do think we have to consider *some* constraints. I suggest the following for consideration: that we break it up into one page per chapter, with a rule stating that any attempts to begin further chapters on that page will be deleted with a note explaining the rule. People are free to start alternative chapters if they wish, we can't stop that, but we could try to retain the integrity of one chapter per page. --Sunlight 03:37, 4 February 2007 (EST)
Yes this one rule is a good idea, is it possible to fix certain wiki elements and keep structure fixed and only allow people to add or subtract either add 1) new chapters on new pages AFTER existing set of chapters or 2) the text within preexisting chapters that can not be subdivided or removed?--Alex bunker 04:33, 4 February 2007 (EST)
I'm not sure what's possible as I am not admin but I'm in touch with admin and there's a suggestion that this backchannel discussion may be moved to the Blog (see side menu) so that it can continue there safely without any danger of being erased. --Sunlight 05:28, 4 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] story discussion
As we can create pages willy-nilly on the wiki - why don't we create a "real story" that way; the main page being free to be abused and destroyed by the would-be-idiots of the world (although, really, it is just another form of the art - even if imature and infantile.)
If you want to do this; I'm going to put a link here and get something started based on the earlier 7 chapters if I can. Give me five minutes though okay ? :-)
M (I'll re-edit and add the link when I've done it, if I can)
--Mas 21:56, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Hi everyone. I love the idea of an online co-lab novel and have an idea which may help to form a cohesive story. When I was a young fella in jail me and a couple of my mates used to sit around and form an adventure story by going turn about. Each of us would contribute a scene before ending that part of the yarn with something like (As he stepped into the room and hit the light switch his nostrils were assailed by the overpowering stench of.....) the next bloke would then run with the story from there before handing over to someone else. This meant while you could take the story in any direction you wanted, it always moved foward along a little spinelike structure of it's own. We used to find that the same protagonistic(is that even a word?) characters would keep popping up all the way, while others would be killed off almost immediately. It was good fun and you would quite often find yourself flying around the world on a giant Crig (thats the mutant animal which results from the genetic mixing of a wild pig and a crow) fighting parasitic peppermints sent to earth by God to wipe out mankind. "Sorry about the rambling. Just thought a similar principle might help keep the story together in such a fluid environment." he said staring at the man on the otherside of the world through his monitor. The forign man stroked the stubble that had poked through his chin over the weekend and began to type.....
Yeah, this thing needs help, and definitely more rules.
I think people that are interested in genuinely contributing are being put off. It's tough when a couple of nights ago we had something promising, almost the beginnings of an actual story (if still something very corny, weird, and hilarious)and now it's basically all gone. Me or somebody else could make some kind of heroic effort to try and get that version back, or try and shape something from what is here now, but it seems like there would be little point to that when the "Big Bablooey Benjy" crowd would just descend upon it again instantly.
Maybe the writer's ego thing is coming into it here, but I don't honestly think I'm annoyed because I can't *control* the story, but only because there *isn't* one. --Cardinal
Just a note, I've added some detail (backstory ?) to the characters of Carlo, ELizabeth and her life-long friend Sandy Roseburg. Feel free to pick them to pieces, destroy, re-write or establish alternative histories. One thing I've not worked out it what Carlo's relationship with Big Tony or whoever we're calling him now. How were they partners ? Was it during Carlo's military service; was Big Tony a superiour officer ? Maybe getting Carlo involved in some shady shennanigans?
(they don't show up very well as links in my browser, so here they are again.)
Carlo , Liz , Sandy Roseburg , Inu , Big Tony
M.
--Mas 21:32, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Hi All - I'm sorry, but all the chapter summaries have gone. I tried to restore them but the system won't allow it because, as it says, 'The edit could not be undone due to conflicting intermediate edits.' I don't think it's going to be possible to instill, or even encourage, any coherency or consistency. We're going to have to live with the chaos, unless we develop some enforceable rules, rather than just guidelines - and it's probably too late for that anyway. --Christine 21:08, 3 February 2007 (EST)
You are absolutely right Beldarin. Equally, we can create a non-linear narrative in this space if we want to - but it still needs to be planned & plotted so it is coherant. I am a great fan of hypertext stories, but as a group we need to think about how to link the elements and create an overall story, whatever path the reader takes - otherwise we will just end up with a collection of short stories, as we appear to have at the moment. Hopefully the modifications I have made allowing space to develop a timeline of events for the story will help us to achieve this. ... what does everyone else think about this issue? (Kirsty McGill)
Yes, but if you want dynamic and chaotic, you can all too easily find it in any of a thousand forums in a thousand topics. The whole point here is can the group mind, of a thousand disparate opinions, actually CREATE coherancy and consistancy....? It's just occured to me, that maybe the real joy of this project, will be in watching the evolution process in flow, and not the finished project at all. Though I fear it would take way more hours observartion than i have to spare, to really appreciate it.--Beldarin 16:58, 3 February 2007 (EST)
If you think that there will ever be any coherency and consistency to this project, then you seriously do not understand the social mechanisms on the internet, especially regarding Wikis.
We could write any number of different plotlines in this space, but who is to say that this is the one true and righteous path for the story?
How about we allow the story to be dynamic and chaotic like it already is. It's not as if Penguin havn't published enough volumes of generic and uninspiring formulaic material anyway.--Pippinz 16:25, 3 February 2007 (EST)
WHOA! A whole lot can happen in a day can't it? Seems like a totally different story now, and although I've made relatively few contributions thus far, seeing how much has changed makes me feel weirdly shunted out... hmmm. I wonder if will see a a story each week that bears no relation to the previous, and carries no sign of those who made those first few vital contributions. I love how the structure behind the scenes is developing though, nice work.--Beldarin 15:35, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Hi All - someone mentioned the idea of a "story arc" to help us get a sensible plot structure... followed by someone else making the very apt comment that the story appears (cuurently) to be a bit like the opening of several stories, one after the other.
To get round this, I have set up a story arc page and a chapter summary page for each chapter. If people could summarise each chapter and refer to these summaries then hopefully we can build up a sensible timeline for events in the story - and thereby a plausible plot.
Anyone can help with this - it is just an idea to help us work together more logically!
Having fun! ~ Kirsty McGill
Just logged on and it's good to see such wise discussion after the madness of earlier on. Some excellent suggestions - I'm learning a lot. The balance between locking and leaving still seems fairly equal. --Jhoward 09:43, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Shall we make an effort (as has been suggested) to stick to the current characters (eg Carlo, Johnny, Jenny, Inu and Mr Bell) for the time being and develop the story around them. I'd like to keep the "Meanwhile somewhere else" bits until later. What do you think?--Jhoward 12:48, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Having gone to bed last night; I guess like Cardinal previously, was impressed at the way the story was going; today after a period of running around and taking care of some of the mundane things that life dictates we take care of, I check the story and it's a completely different story; part of me wants to revert it to the story we had left last night, part of me wonders where the new tale is going. I wonder if we should, rather than limit us to one creative space, open the floor for many divergent paths that the stor(y/ies) can take.
I'm getting distracted by the endless new characters. I wish people could stick to developing the plot and the story that's there. But hey ho I guess that's how it goes... everyone wanting their own story to be pre-eminent(wonder if we could limit contributors to specific stories; [I like this idea --Jhoward 10:08, 3 February 2007 (EST)] someone moderating which users come on board and acting as an editor, controlling the flow and avoiding damage by vast re-writes, like what seems to have currently happened; Big Tony et al disappearing into the the electronic graveyard, abandoned just as things were getting interesting; and now new authors adding to the current story; who would be annoyed if we were to forcibly revert their story to the previous one)
M.
--Mas 09:17, 3 February 2007 (EST)
Wow, and to think the first seven or so chapters were almost coherent when I went to bed last night...I guess if this is going to work as a readable novel in the current format, 9 or 10 people really need to strongarm it and spend their every waking hour making sure no-one has messed too badly with it (much like Wikipedia entries)...as a social experiment though, it seems to be working in some kind of weird way already... :)--Cardinal
why does it start with chapter 2???
--Djjansen 19:12, 2 February 2007 (CST)
Folks, earlier today several chapters, starting with Seven, floated loose when the link to them was deleted. I've just replaced it, but now we have two chapter sevens! You might decide you'd prefer to cut it loose again, but I leave it for your perusal. FYI the way to restore the link if it gets lost again is to write this == Chapter Seven ==--Sunlight 16:13, 2 February 2007 (CST)
Novel Direction Suggestion
I'm thinking that with the nature of this proejct, we're not going to get a complex, plot-heavy thriller.. perhaps we should aim for a more humerous-oriented tongue=in-cheek self-aware novel.. as in the style of douglas adams, terry pratchet, etc. that way, the plot isn't as important.. there's been some great funny writing with different people riffing off each other.. let's hope it stays around!.. --TheGreatAmericanNovel 19:33, 2 February 2007 (CST)
I think that's a great idea and I'm all for it. Let's see how it goes? --Syncophant 24:33, 2 February 2007 (CST)
I'm up for that as well. --3sA_Crowd 24:55, 3 February 2007 (CST)
Indeed. Perhaps a doctor had objections to that one. It could go either way with old Ru-Ru at the moment, but I was thinking a man like the Tango Poisoner would need many aliases...and perhaps one would be....Tony Mockbell! DUM DUM DUM! Or is Big Tony Tony Mockbell? Does that mean there are TWO Tango Poisoners? The plot thickens (No, I can't back that statement up, currently.) --Cardinal
Off the handle? lol, no further off than it was last night, but by today, wow! You read the piece about Runihura Morouse tangoing on his bloody stumps? OMG! speaking oh Ru Ru, you think he'd delusional about being the tango killer, or is it the cops who are wrong? hmmm.... Give it time I say, the wackier pieces gradually become more rational--Beldarin 07:50, 2 February 2007 (CST)
Yeah, couldn't bring myself to get rid of it :) Mind you there are bigger problems - at about chapter 7 this thing flies *totally* off the handle - or should I say loses its already extremely thin grip on said handle :) --Cardinal
Ah man, I liked the zombie bit. S'not my fault the author before me killed Carlo. I actually feel kind of bad for Carlo. Anyone else read Animal Man? All thes different quantum-Carlos running around in a state of non-existance. Must be a drag.--Pez
Was just laughing to myself here, wondering how long that sturgeon gag will remain in chapter 2, t totally cracks me up, but will no doubt be edited out before long, lol--Beldarin 07:40, 2 February 2007 (CST) --Mas 09:17, 3 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] Story Synopsis
Druggy Carlo, is our antihero. His quest is to get clean, find a girl, and discover his destiny.
Sargent Anderson will die trying to save Tango's life just so he can rot in prison. He will be awarded a congressional medal.. etc
Carlos Wife will be killed by Tango.
The pregnant woman is mentioned in the later chapters, sharing a room with Tango. Carlo sought the out of body experience to locate where the poisoner was and saw him through her eyes.
Chapter 1 was originally in first person, have updated it to 3rd. The dog's name has also been standardised. Previously it was Igloo, Indy and Inu.
Removed the drug description a bit was it was not really relevant to the story.
Can we establish a story arc and work together to fill it in? Otherwise, it's a mess.
[edit] plot discussion
What started out as something quite exciting has de-generated into a blood bath of merciless editing and plot prostitution. Some restraints must be put in place. Some structure is needed. An umpire of some description, otherwise the whole project will never develop as it was meant to. John K. So it's started - and what a beginning! Blood and guts straight away. I'm wondering, is it too much too soon? Thrust into a whirl of torment, where do we go from here? On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with a dramatic opening. Hit the ground running.
Immediate questions - Who's Carlo? Is it a crime of passion? What's the dog got to do with it?
I don't know - I'm tempted to erase it all!!! In the first para it reads as though the bed is in the kitchen. Is it? What kind of a novel has a bed in a kitchen?
It would make more sense if Carlo is sitting at the front door - there is less movement to negotiate that way so we can get on with whats in his head. I think we can make more of this - but it would probably take someone who has experience of this kind of mental state to describe it more vividly. I agree - we need to think where we are going to go from here...
She needed him, his madness could wait. I'm tempted to add - But madness waits for no man... In a valiant effort to resist the urge, I add it here instead.
This is all a big effort for me as I hate books about people with mental illnesses. My contributions will be inevitably trying to 'normalise' the story or the characters a bit! (I'll do my best to follow the flow)
It's very interesting to watch different people's contributions, with their own effort to make their mark.
I was prepared for the pain of finding I'd been deleted; what's rather nice is to find I've been improved - a sentence extended, details added. That gives me hope for the whole concept, its wikiness making it more than just an enormous game of consequences.
Not sure if I am in the right place. What's the etiquette please re signatures after an edit? Hi there - we thought signatures in the main text would interrupt the flow of the novel, but if people want to sign in discussions, that would be useful--Jeremyet 12:57, 1 February 2007 (CST)
The bit about the drink. "Tango?" - Hmmm, maybe product placement should be avoided - if this becomes "a hit" then we don't want a flock of advertisers trying to squeeze their product in. I know it creates a greater sense of reality - but at quite a cost - and may lead to greater problems down the line.
Does anyone want to take the Tango out? ---
I think we should either edit, or not edit, but stay away from putting thoughts about editing into the novel itself. It's confusing.
--Cokennon 12:19, 1 February 2007 (CST)
I agree. The editorial comments are ones I quite agreed with, but they should be here not there. I've taken them out for now.(jhoward)
Maybe it would be a good idea to stop introducing new characters at this point (end of chapter 2) and elaborate on the ones already mentioned! (Yannis)
All on one page?
Is the whole novel really going to be on one page (one wiki article)? Perhaps each chapter could be a different page? -Eisnel 14:48, 1 February 2007 (CST)
Good point Eisnel - we'll create new pages for chapters tomorrow - though they will still be editable--Jeremyet 15:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)
The idea to stop introducing more and more new characters is good actually, as the first time i read the whole thing, i saw no connection between the chapchers...it looks like just several examples of the beginning of the novel. And don'n you think there's too much blood,dogs and injuries\deseases, whatever?
I've got a problem with this passage found in chapter three paragraph two.
She and her partner's three year old cocker spaniel barked in the upstairs bedroom, no doubt confused and upset by the fact Madeline's better half, the dog's favorite half, was lying in a tragic mockery of a bath in their tub.
Read quite literally, the woman and dog are barking upstairs. I'm playing with a re-write but I'm not quite certain how I want to phrase it yet.
The first chapter almost feels like "A Scanner Darkly", if you know what that means--Ax 23:21, 3 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] Annotated Chunks...
How about dividing the book up into annotated chunks? --Argagsfca3 01:38, 2 February 2007 (CST)
[edit] Choose your own adventure
Anyone want to tag team on the Fantasy section for a while. It's quiet and seems to be a good chance to get some solid writing done. Cheers, Tim, Australia.
I think the Admin should look at making this a choose your own adventure. With the abilities of Wiki, you could even start out picking a Genre, ie. Contemporary fiction, sci fi, fantasy, horror, contemporary fantasy, etc, and the wiki would take you to that book. Then you could make a decision and people would write a chapter based on that decision Which would bring you to the next chapter such as 3a then a decision based on that would go to 4ab etc. In this way it would keep people directed, and make something more unique then the standard fiction. Please feel free to weigh in on the posibilities, especially admin. What do you think? --Nicholasjh 15:56, 2 February 2007 (CST)
I've started a choose your own adventure version. Here is the link: == Choose your own adventure version== --Nicholasjh 17:55, 2 February 2007 (CST)
I've moved the link to Choose Your Own Adventure to make it easier to link to. --Gamblor856 20:04, 5 February 2007 (EST)
Major contributions have now been made to some of the categories, and it is really quite interesting. Thanks! --Nicholasjh 11:55, 7 February 2007 (EST)
this is a great idea nicholas. its like coming in from the darkness.....
This is an awesome idea! Please make a link on the main page! --Lincoln 17:46, 7 February 2007 (EST)
I added it to the list of alternative stories list. Hope no one minds. --Lincoln 17:48, 7 February 2007 (EST)
I'm not sure if I mind, was hoping to keep it from vandals, but the more contributors the better. --Nicholasjh 18:47, 7 February 2007 (EST)
Anyone want to tag team on the Fantasy section for a while. It's quiet and seems to be a good chance to get some solid writing done. Cheers, Tim, Australia
Sounds good Tim, I might not be able to do anything until Sunday though. Maybe we can get a third involved? --Nicholasjh 12:24, 9 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] 'The only way to make this a serious and controlled work is to eliminate every author but one'. --Thunderfoot 12:32, 6 February 2007 (PST)
'The only way to make this a serious and controlled work is to eliminate every author but one'. Thunderfoot said to me at exactly 12:32, on the 6th of February 2007 in PST, whatever that meant.
Me, I thought it meant pistol. Or Post Shock Trauma. Or Portable Salamai Trampol--
But I dig holes in my car. Makes it go faster.
That's what I usually do, out here waiting for some action. For my prey to make a move. For my paint to dry.
Word on the wire - no what were the kids calling it these days?- the dohickey wiki thingy made of tubes by that Gore guy.
The Internet.
That's it.
Word on the Internet was that some guy was looking for a million penguins to do a job.
A very special job.
Over the tuuubes.
I guess like at those tubes at the drive thru window at my bank. The pnumonic tubes.
And if a job required at least a million penguins to carry out, it had to be big. Bigger than a car.
And indiscreet. Obvious.
The kind of job that teaches someone to ride a bike or two.
But now this guy, this -entity- called Thunderfoot cries out from the ethernet, the world inside the tuuubes for someone to 'eliminate every author but one' as he said.
My kind of job.
The names Simon N. Schuster. The N stands for 'Nuggets'.
Folks that call me, call me Sim. Call me, call me. Call me Sim.
Or they call me Shoe. And that makes me cry.
But nobody calls me N.
Nobody.
Not even my Sainted mother, bless her soul.
A job like this is going to be big. Huge. Epic. Bigger than a car.
And it'll take time.
Lots of time.
And we'll need bullets.
Lot's of bullets.
If we are to save this world, we will need quite a lot of time. And bullets.
Please mail all the spare time and bullets to.
Simon N. Schuster,
4 Loony Lane,
Loonyville,
Loonyland
LN6 BFDEAR GOD I'M MORE THAN SLIGHTLY INSANE
Thunderfoot tapped pensively on his keyboard. His deliriously handsome features twitched as letters appeared on the screen. Could this Mr. Schuster truly be as mad as he claimed? Could he misconstrue my statements as an attack? Before he realized it, his words had sprung to life in a blunt, unforgiving Courier typeface. A ripple of shock passed through him as he realized that in fact, he was narrating his own life. Could it be?
Something stirred behind him. Of course, he had work to do.
He put on his rabbit slippers and scuffled towards the Rabbit-Mobile. The didn't call him Thunderfoot for nothing.
[edit] This is a serious and controlled work. --Lincoln 17:42, 7 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] Chapter 5 onwards
I added header so it shows on the contents, unfortunetly I could not directly edit the contents so it would just go to the correct page instead of at the bottom. --Lincoln 17:42, 7 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] Table of Contents
Is there any way to remove the numbers? It messes up the flow. --Lincoln 17:43, 7 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] A Structured Approach
Chatting with Leperflesh, we came to the conclusion that a different way of doing a wikinovel would be interesting... I'll ask him to explain it. --Lincoln 17:55, 7 February 2007 (EST)
- Fundamentally, I think you need to begin by controlling who can edit: there should be no anonymous editors, and the main moderator should be able to eliminate (ban) editors who are spamming/trolling/abusive. Even better would be a project that was by-invitation-only, with between a dozen and perhaps 100 contributors total.
- 1) start with an outlining/brainstorming phase
- 2) then define a cut-off point where that is over and there is only adding/editing text to follow that outlining phase. Edits which add subplot are OK, but you can't destroy the main plot thread that's been decided upon.
- 3) then another cutoff point and after that is only copyediting and bugfixing. You can fix grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. but no removal of content or major content additions.
- 4) finally there is a cutoff point and the novel is declared done.
- --Leperflesh 18:01, 7 February 2007 (EST)
- Here is a run down of ideas
- controlling who can edit
- no anonymous editors
- Chief should be able to eliminate (ban) editors who are spamming/trolling/abusive
- invitation-only
- between a dozen and perhaps 100 contributors total
- Break it into distinct steps:
- outlining/brainstorming phase
- ??
- profit
- cutoff point and the novel is declared done.
- Of course these are just a few of many possible ideas to be voted upon, even per novel? --Lincoln 18:11, 7 February 2007 (EST)
- Essentially, as a model for "producing wiki-project novels", you can start with the assumption that whoever starts the novel project should pick a structure for how it will be moderated. The wikipedia has moderation - largely, it is community-based, but there are official mods too, who can ban users and lock pages. For this penguin novel, there are mods as well... but I think they are not using their powers of bannination, and the page-locking is not the same, necessarily.
- Here is a run down of ideas
- So, ideally, some higher level of moderation/control is used (see above suggestions) and that allows for greater creativity by each contribitors. With the current situation, a contributor has to go super-fast and make tiny contributions to avoid hitting an edit conflict - which essentially prevents copyediting or making several small changes throughout a block of text. That needs to be encouraged, not prevented.--Leperflesh 18:46, 7 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] A Structured Approach II
- Ideas for future WikiNovel and other WikiArt projects.
A system to allow choices for structure of any given project. A system to allow the creation, structure, and completion of the story ark before any words for it are written.
- --Lincoln 13:16, 9 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] Universalis as a plot generator
We could have many people play it. Any person who leaves will lose their Coins, but nothing else will happen. People can join at any time. Eyu100 22:19, 7 February 2007 (EST)
- This is just for generating the "story arc". Eyu100 22:22, 7 February 2007 (EST)
[edit] The layout is borked
At the bottom the link is "chapter 5 onwards", already all of the chapter 5's, the link starts with chapter 6, each succesive page is borked in the same manner. --Sun Tzu 19:06, 8 February 2007 (EST)
- Yesterday, I attempted to fix it. I did some page moving and renamed the different pages (except the first page) "Section A novel x", where x is some number. This makes alot more sense when the number of chapters and thier names are constantly in flux. --Lincoln 12:39, 9 February 2007 (EST)
- A Total Failure *
As a permanently ex-contributor to this project, I just want to express total disappointment and lack of confidence in it. It's just a big wall of virtual graffiti. I doubt whether anyone here has studied literature in depth or done any form of commercial writing - let alone being capable of exercising physical/mental restraint in their amateurish efforts.
I wish this thing would just go away now, instead of encouraging idiocy.
